Northern Harrier in Norfolk?

[forktail]

This carries on from the Kilcoole harrier thread, where Alex has provided some very useful information.

The Norfolk bird was again reported as 'showing well' today and despite a continuing lack of details, presumably down to the distance of observation, at least one observer on Bird Forum had stated that he is sure it is a Northern Harrier.

I will add any more info here as it surfaces, and of course anyone else is more than welcome to do the same.

F.

[DaveN]

Hi-

I watched the afore-mentioned bird with experienced birding companions at Titchwell yesterday both in flight and perched for 5 minutes on a post on Thornham Marsh.

To us it appeared slimmer winged than we would have expected for a HH, the upperparts were a darker brown than the norm and the head was noticeably hooded with only a small pale line under the eye. The usual 'owl-like' expression with dark streaks on a pale cheek was totally absent.
The dark brown upper-part colour extended onto the breast , the belly was very warm rufous-orange as were bars on the ( at least) outer 2 tail feathers on each side.

D

[robinchittenden]

Is this the bird?

Please click on Norfolk at www.birdlineeastanglia.co.uk (http://www.birdlineeastanglia.co.uk)

You can right click to enlarge a little.

Thanks

Robin
__________________
www.birdlineeastanglia.co.uk & www.robinchittenden.co.uk

[Brian S]

Robin

[For those that go to the site, click on Norfolk birding]

Very interesting! I can see six bars on primaries 9 and 8, plus it looks quite hooded......I think I will need to see this....

Any chance of sending me a better res shot?

Brian S

[forktail]

I can see six bars on primaries 9 and 8, plus it looks quite hooded......I think I will need to see this....

Brian S

yep, definitely six bars in addition to the tip on P9/8 Brian and 4 on P10 so looking good.

F

[robinchittenden]

The photos are highly enlarged record shots...just missed getting some corkers as it flew right past me just as I arrived. Luckily it doubled back, hovered (a feature in itself, apparently) then headed off east. Higher res images show very little else if anything.

I never had the chance to look at it through bins. Just had it in my head to prioritise photographing any white-rumped Harrier that I might see, just in case.

I've added location and date to the website www.birdlineeastanglia.co.uk (http://www.birdlineeastanglia.co.uk) but only had a chance to properly look at the photos yesterday as I was running a Birdwatching course for the National Trust at Brancaster Staithe over the weekend. Thanks to Andy Stoddart & Richard Millington for commenting on the images.

Thanks

Robin

[Brian S]

Check out these by Steve G

http://www.birdingworld.co.uk/Norfolk%202010.1.htm

Brian S

[Alex Lees]

Check out these by Steve G

http://www.birdingworld.co.uk/Norfolk%202010.1.htm

Brian S

almost as good as this one (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAp5Uc_BFx8).

[LeeEvans]

I could only find an image of a HEN HARRIER, scrolling down from the female Northern Bullfinch. Where are SJMG's images of the Marsh Hawk?

[Alex Lees]

I could only find an image of a HEN HARRIER, scrolling down from the female Northern Bullfinch. Where are SJMG's images of the Marsh Hawk?

Pics are still up as far as I can see, the first bunch......

So, at the risk of sounding like a [very] stuck record.....

Have a look at further Danish (presumed) Hen Harriers that also show multiple hudsonius characteristics, this one (http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?id=showpicture&picture_id=14441)and this one (http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?id=showpicture&picture_id=5882).

Ignoring primary pattern for the moment (the number of bars is to my eye not really that useful given that there is total overlap) I've been trying to work out how informative the boa might be. I've previously presented plenty of information showing boa variation in hudsonius (also appended below) but before we play snap with any of this winter's candidates we need to know whether you can really rule out Hen. See attached new montage of left Hen look-alikes and right accepted/in-consideration Northerns. All these birds show a largely unstreaked orangey breast, whilst the top two Hens show a relatively broad boa and the last bird shows very restricted white around the eye and a well-marked boa. Consider that I found these images by a trawl through a relatively small selection of online images, it is possible that look-a-likes may be over-represented because they are more likely to be photographed, but there is no indication that this is the case. This suggests that such rufescent Marsh Hawk mimics are not uncommon. How much of an observer effect is this sudden upsurge? I have in my position some fuzzy images of a candidate from Titchwell two winters ago... We can't really start by comparing these European candidates to hudsonius, its plain to see that several (most notably the Wexford and Scilly birds) are absolutely perfect. My point (still) is that given what we don't know about cyaneus where can we draw the line? I obviously have massive vested interests in claiming a '2nd for Britain' but am still totally uneasy about the criteria we currently have to test against.

[LeeEvans]

For some reason, I couldn't get my browser to refresh for these latest uploaded images but fortunately they were kindly forwarded on to me. Although there area few anomalies, this individual does seem to tick most of the boxes for Northern Harrier and perhaps critically has SIX bars on the longest under-primary. It does have a noticeable dark hood, the underwing pattern other than the ginger section to the inner outer-wing and the uniformly dark brown upperparts.

I know we have seen Anthony McGeehan's example of a juvenile Hen Harrier with strongly and extensively barred under-primaries but can anyone find further Hen Harriers with such markings?

[reynard]

Hiya.

Just a quickie. Is the bird in Robins pictures the same bird as the one in Steves pictures?

Cheerio.
Reynard.

[LeeEvans]

Hi Renard

I have struggled with that one, especially when you see the apparent missing/displaced wing feathers on Robin Chittenden's initial images. If they are two different birds, then we really are in trouble in my view, as that would suggest that these birds are just variable European Hen Harriers. The fact that both birds appear to show 6 bars on the longest under-primary must surely suggest that they are the same birds - one photographed in dull, dreary, misty and damp conditions and the other in cold, crisp, bright conditions. The underwing pattern on both birds appears identical.

A few things worry me: the head pattern, the prominent streaking on the underparts, the lack of ginger/orange on the outer part of the underwing, the extensive pale tips to the upperwing coverts and the restricted white rump but can all be explained away by individual variation.

As I said above though, I would like to see more convincing evidence that the underwing pattern is diagnostic.

In many respects, this has placed Marsh Hawk identification in the same arena that I now find myself finding with European Pacific Diver identification. It may be opening a can of worms too far !

[GoneBirding]

Just wondering if the damage apparent on the wings of the bird in Robin's pics isn't permanent but just displaced feathers that the bird has now preened back into shape, perhaps caused by dropping into vegetation whilst feeding on a damp day?
Looking at the precise detail of some of the barring etc on the primaries does lead me to think its the same bird but I stand to be corrected......

Can I ask, with the ID of Marsh Hawk/Northern Harrier in addition to the primary barring differences etc that are put forward as separators from cyaneus and that Alex and Lee amongst others point out could be variable and overlap, does the narrower dark center bar of the 3 across the underside of the secondaries still hold water as an indicator of Marsh Hawk... I seem to remember reading it was a good feature? MGarners write up does mention this feature too.... has this feature been found on cyaneus Hen Harriers at all?

ATB

Steph'

[Josh Jones]

Some more rufous juvenile Hen Harriers:

http://www.birdguides.com/picture?f=235627
(4 bars on p10, 5 bars on p8)

http://www.birdguides.com/picture?f=227426

http://www.birdguides.com/picture?f=195613
(pretty much non-streaked)

http://www.birdguides.com/picture?f=122202


Have had a look through and struggling to find any Hen Harriers which show a combination of what we would call strong Northern Harrier features such as six primaries, heavily-rufous underparts and a weak middle secondary bar.

However, I'm with Alex in that I'd be a little concerned in this remarkable arrival of hudsonicus, particularly when we don't really know the true variation of a highly variable species (cyaneus). Should hudsonicus really be arriving here numbers given the lack of records of other Nearctic birds of prey, and that raptors would (presumably) be highly reluctant to make such great sea crossings?

[LeeEvans]

I knew it would happen. Pierre Andre-Crochet has done some excellent detective work and has located a fantastic library of Finnish HEN HARRIER images - all taken by the highly professional and award-winning photographer Markus Varesvuo - see gallery here http://www.birdphoto.fi/lajikuvat/circya/index.php

By browsing the images, it does not take too long to find individuals with underwing patterns resembling that of the apparent hudsonius-types we are flagging up

[Brian S]

I knew it would happen. Pierre Andre-Crochet has done some excellent detective work and has located a fantastic library of Finnish HEN HARRIER images - all taken by the highly professional and award-winning photographer Markus Varesvuo - see gallery here http://www.birdphoto.fi/lajikuvat/circya/index.php

By browsing the images, it does not take too long to find individuals with underwing patterns resembling that of the apparent hudsonius-types we are flagging up

A good set of images and it is right that we challenge the criteria, yes, but on one single point of the underwing can you point me to an image in the set with six clear bars on pps 7, 8 and 9?

Brian

[Alex Lees]

A good set of images and it is right that we challenge the criteria, yes, but on one single point of the underwing can you point me to an image in the set with six clear bars on pps 7, 8 and 9?

Brian

Just to recap on the Martin (2008) criteria:
---------------------------------------------
UNDERSIDE OF PRIMARIES
Northern
Five ‘fingers’. P10 (outermost) with 3–4 (rarely 5) blackish bars plus the black tip. P8–P9 with 5–6 blackish bars plus the dark tip. Inners with only two blackish bars and indistinctly dark at tip.

Hen
Five ‘fingers’. P10 with three blackish bars plus the black tip. P8–P9 with 3–4 (5) blackish bars plus the dark tip. Inners with only two blackish bars and on average more distinctly dark at tip. Barring may be very weak on some males.

JM Comments
Based on photos, as impossible to see on most skins.

UNDERSIDE OF SECONDARIES
Northern
Typically has a diffuse, broad dark trailing band. Subterminal band is usually
narrower than those on either side. Inner band is broadest. Hints of a fourth band visible on outers in most. Often dark/dusky overall (age related not species-specific).

Hen
Can be similar in at least some individuals. Fewer have the fourth band on the outers.

JM Comments
Appears to be of little use as a feature.
----------------------------------------

So, at least in the recent BB paper the secondaries were not considered to be particularly informative - obviously that doesn't mean that the feature is a total red herring. And subsequent searches for images have found at least one instance of a cyaneus with 6-bars on P9, bearing in mind that hudsonius can show 4-6 at least. Maybe there's some sort of Wilson's Snipe style minutiae that may be diagnostic?

Alex

[Alex Lees]

Something that had always seemed to be pretty diagnostic of hudsonius for me was the contrast between the dark of the head/boa and the paleness of the breast (and pale patches on the face), although this (http://www.birdphoto.fi/lajikuvat/kuvahtml/9circya172.html) - admittedly heavily streaked bird - does break that rule. The boa itself is well within the range of hudsonius though...

[Jrhough1]

Hmmm....since Hen and Northern Harrier are likely to be closely related it stands to reason that plumage features will overlap and from a vagrancy context it will be impossible to pigeon-hole some individuals.

The gallery pictures by Markus and Tomi (as pointed out by Pierre) are exceptionally beautiful and capture a nice selection of Hen Harriers, but I'm not sure exactly what Lee is referring to - rufousy-juv. Hen Harriers in themselves are not a revelation. Many of the birds can show Northern-like features, but the key is how many is enough.

The Norfolk bird, IMHO ticks the right boxes and other people I have spoken to who have been involved with these intriguing birds agree - albeit with a little bit of incredulity, since I think we all felt good that a bird with a suite of characters attributed to hudsonius would prove to be just that.

Steve G's great shots of the Thornham bird show it to be a great candidate for a juv. male Marsh Hawk....if it is a Hen Harrier then we need regroup and start over :(

As Alex has shown in montages, with enough looking you can find so much variation it will make your head spin, but most of the pictures in the gallery above show birds that have streaking intruding into the central breast, have a lot of white around the eye, streaked underwing coverts and a reduced number of bars on the primaries.

The Norfolk bird's streaked underparts are perfectly fine for Marsh Hawk, but is it one? I don't think anyone can tell you with certainty but if we are abiding by a checklist of points "for" vs "against" the photos certainly show a lot in the "for" column.

Julian

[John Bell]

Hi all,

Thinking back to Alex's N.Ron bird. I felt at the time that it might be a good idea to play the waiting game with these taxa. See what else turns up if you know what I mean. Since then there has been three reasonable claims this autumn plus one from St.Kilda the same year as the N.Ron bird. There are two ways to interpret this:

1. Northern Harrier is more frequent than realised
2. Hen Harrier is more variable than realised

ok so there could be a combination but you know I think we have now had a few too many Northerns as Josh Jones implies.

If you go by textbook then the only feature that is totally diagnostic is the underwing primary pattern and that has now been called into question so I would be inclined to regard Northern Harrier as unidentifiable in the WP. I'm not in any way having a go at those that have written earlier ID articles on harriers. You have to first state a rule before it can be broken. Also broadly speaking such articles are highly accurate and educational.

Unusual birds have been known from the British Islands since at least the late eighties when a short note appeared in BB concerning orangey juv. harriers from the IoM and reinforced more recently from a photo from mainland Orkney showing a harrier with extensive barring on the primaries. Despite this showing the variation of British Islands' birds I wonder if maybe some of these 'stripey' harriers actually come from the east rather than west. Maybe we are not fully aware of the subtle variation in eastern Hen Harriers? Birds turning up on N.Ron and St.Kilda stand a good chance of having come across the N.Sea as I presume does a wintering bird in N.Norfolk.

Maybe it is like ok so you can deal with Herring Gull and American Herring Gull, now let's consider Vega Gull, if you see what I mean.

cheers,
John

[John Bell]

The photos are highly enlarged record shots...just missed getting some corkers as it flew right past me just as I arrived. Luckily it doubled back, hovered (a feature in itself, apparently) then headed off east. Higher res images show very little else if anything.


Hi Robin et al,

Hovering is definitely not a feature of Northern Harrier. I'm sure they do hover more often but so do Hen Harriers (per obs). These raptors will adjust their behaviour to local conditions of weather etc.


Also one other reason to consider the possibility of this bird having come from further away is because so many of our native birds are killed before they can get to Norfolk. Anyone who thinks Malta is bad should go to Braemar or Leadhills.

cheers,
John

[Brian S]

Check out image 23 and 43 at this link (of N Harrier) and compare the number of bars on pps and the marks on the underparts with Norfolk bird.

http://ari1982.smugmug.com/Animals/raptor/Northern-Harrier/14822282_TAcia#701901162_RMbQs

Brian S

[forktail]

regarding the 'diagnostic' under primaries...

The BB paper cites P10 with 3 bars plus the tip (the Norfolk bird has four) and P8 and P9 with 3-4 and rarely 5 bars plus the black tip (the Norfolk bird has six). This feature was based on photos, however, it would have been informative to know just how many images of Hens and from whereabouts, had been used to arrive at the under primaries criteria above.

And can someone confirm the number of Hens now found with six bars on at least one of the longer primaries? How does this feature compare on adult hudsonius? I have no idea but here's an interesting Hen from North Ron: http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/a1kj_0kGMds8ayaEzfWdhA

[pariah]

Check out image 23 and 43 at this link (of N Harrier) and compare the number of bars on pps and the marks on the underparts with Norfolk bird.

http://ari1982.smugmug.com/Animals/raptor/Northern-Harrier/14822282_TAcia#701901162_RMbQs

Brian S

Where were these photos taken Brian?

Owen

[Sandgrouse]

regarding the 'diagnostic' under primaries...

The BB paper cites P10 with 3 bars plus the tip (the Norfolk bird has four) and P8 and P9 with 3-4 and rarely 5 bars plus the black tip (the Norfolk bird has six). This feature was based on photos, however, it would have been informative to know just how many images of Hens and from whereabouts, had been used to arrive at the under primaries criteria above.

And can someone confirm the number of Hens now found with six bars on at least one of the longer primaries?

Hi,

Yet another interesting harrier found on the web.

The bird about half way down the page here:-
http://laplandmull.blogspot.com/ which when selected and enlarged looks like this:-
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Zv9qn3LwDj0/TM1YS3duciI/AAAAAAAACSg/wF-fYGsXIiw/s1600/Hen+Harrier1.jpg
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Zv9qn3LwDj0/TM1YS3duciI/AAAAAAAACSg/wF-fYGsXIiw/s1600/Hen+Harrier1.jpg)
It was apparently photographed on Mull in late October this year. It appears to show light streaking on the flanks with orange underparts, 4 bars under P10 and 6 bars under P9 but it is difficult to be certain of the latter. The middle secondary bar is thicker under the outer secondaries but becomes thinner towards the body and there is a suggestion of a fourth inner secondary bar, showing from under the coverts.

Mull in October would also be 'good' for both (sub)species.

Tim asked about Hens showing six bars to which I can add the following web image of a bird identified as a Hen that might show 5 or perhaps 6 bars - intriguingly photographed in Wexford in April 2007:-

http://www.photobirdireland.com/showPhotos.asp?id=272&photo_id=744

To add further to the comments on eastern birds by John Bell this eastern Hen Harrier also appears to have the 4 (p10)/6 bars (P9) combination (though not the orange!):-

http://www5b.biglobe.ne.jp/~raptor/hen%20harrier%28female%291_2.jpg
(http://www5b.biglobe.ne.jp/~raptor/hen%20harrier%28female%291_2.jpg)
One thing that needs further research is the effect of wear on the underwing coverts and whether excessive wear can expose an extra bar or very fresh unworn coverts can hide a primary bar. It would worth ascertaining how many under primary bars the individual P10/P9/P8 feathers actually have on museum specimens - the next time I visit Tring I will have a look at the Hens there.

Andrew

[LeeEvans]

Andrew

It seems that everyone is scouring the web now in an attempt to find more and more variables in this debate. I have now lost complete confidence in separating juvenile European Hen from juvenile North American Hen and raptor experts I have attempted to get involved with the discussion have met the dilemma with equal dissatisfaction and are reluctant to comment at present.

As I stated in some of my earliest comments on the Norfolk bird, it is possible to find the apparent features of a 'Marsh Hawk' in a substantial number of birds photographed in Europe, but not ALL of the features in any one bird. A single bird showing the full suite of known characters has been considered acceptable previously (eg, the Tacumshin juvenile) but should this critique still be applied in the light of all of these new revelations and images?

There still does seem to be a very good case for treating European Hen and American Hen as very different, as clearly the adult males differ considerably, but what criteria should we be applying to females and juveniles in the light of all this?

[JanJ]

Some more examples, where mentioned features for hudsonius is well visible. Note the juveniles with obvious breast streaking.

http://www.pbase.com/zylen/northern_harrier&page=all

http://www.pbase.com/shenmaker/na_harriers&page=all


A beauty with all in place features:

http://www.pbase.com/nsxbirder/image/130228648

and another:

http://www.pbase.com/image/67455641

JanJ

[Brian S]

Where were these photos taken Brian?

Owen

Yes, it is slightly unsatisfactory that the locations are not listed, but I would guess western US.

Brian S

[Brian S]

Tim asked about Hens showing six bars to which I can add the following web image of a bird identified as a Hen that might show 5 or perhaps 6 bars - intriguingly photographed in Wexford in April 2007:-

http://www.photobirdireland.com/showPhotos.asp?id=272&photo_id=744

Andrew

This does not look like an 'ordinary' Hen Harrier to me........but I am probably wrong.

Brian S

[pariah]

This does not look like an 'ordinary' Hen Harrier to me........but I am probably wrong.

Brian S

Hard to call. Certainly there are plenty of candidates and lookalikes out there.
I had this one scare me yesterday.

From a lot of images I have seen. Some hudsonius seem to show 7 bars on the longest primary....maybe we should upgrade the criteria to this! ;)

The kilcoole bird is safe so.


Owen

[Paul French]

Of possible relevance, there have only been 8 records of Hen Harrier in Iceland (unidentified to race?) up until the end of 2006 http://notendur.hi.is/yannk/1111.pdf and there have been 7 found on the Azores http://www.birdingazores.com/index.php?page=rarebirdref&id=376#NotFirst (at least 1, but probably all hudsonius?).

[Brian S]

Of possible relevance, there have only been 8 records of Hen Harrier in Iceland (unidentified to race?) up until the end of 2006 http://notendur.hi.is/yannk/1111.pdf and there have been 7 found on the Azores http://www.birdingazores.com/index.php?page=rarebirdref&id=376#NotFirst (at least 1, but probably all hudsonius?).

Here's a photo of one on the Azores in 2009.

http://www.birdingazores.com/bigpic.php?filename=cir_cya4.jpg&id=3066&spid=376

Brian S

[Brian S]

Two more images by Adrian Webb on Stop Press.

http://www.surfbirds.com/media/gallery_photos/20101128020557.jpg

http://www.surfbirds.com/media/gallery_photos/20101128020615.jpg

Brian S

[pariah]

Two more images by Adrian Webb on Stop Press.

http://www.surfbirds.com/media/gallery_photos/20101128020557.jpg

http://www.surfbirds.com/media/gallery_photos/20101128020615.jpg

Brian S

http://ari1982.smugmug.com/Animals/raptor/Northern-Harrier/14822282_TAcia#735181250_ZdVRy

That one is odd.
5 bars on longest primary.
Streaks on undertail coverts.
Weak Boa. Is it a first year? Or an older bird?

Owen

[LeeEvans]

In addition to the two images mentioned by Brian from Adrian Webb, the Surfbirds Rare Birds gallery also now has two Vincent LeGrand images uploaded of the Norfolk juvenile male.

Birding World are preparing a detailed article on hudsonius identification which will be published on or about 11 December I guess. They seem to be treating them (that is the three records of late) as this form.

[Brian S]

In addition to the two images mentioned by Brian from Adrian Webb, the Surfbirds Rare Birds gallery also now has two Vincent LeGrand images uploaded of the Norfolk juvenile male.

Birding World are preparing a detailed article on hudsonius identification which will be published on or about 11 December I guess. They seem to be treating them (that is the three records of late) as this form.

Direct links to Vincent's images

http://www.surfbirds.com/media/gallery_photos/20101128050107.jpg
http://www.surfbirds.com/media/gallery_photos/20101128051216.jpg

Brian S

[Paul French]

There's a lot of cross over with the Birdforum thread, but just incase you haven't seen it, check out this interesting male photographed in Durham. Its post no.104

http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?p=1992494#post1992494

My response to these pictures is below:

Given that raptors moult from "the inside out", this can't be a 2nd cal yr can it? There seems to be a moult limit, with P5 missing on the left wing and P8 half grown on the right. The outer primaries should therefore be juvenile if it was a 2nd cal yr. They are clearly adult. The outer primaries on this bird are only black for half the length, which (in a very quick perusal of google and a couple of books) seems to be a Northern Harrier feature, compared to Hen Harrier where the entire length of the outer primaries is black, reaching the underwing coverts. Also, the upperside of the primaries on Heh harrier is black, whereas it seems to be more dark lead grey on Northerm. Just lik ethis bird. Combined with the obvious rufous spotting and dark grey upperparts mixed with brown, I'd be quite excited about this bird. I am quite excited about this bird!!

Someone who knows what they're talking about please stop me before i embarrass myself...

[forktail]

The outer primaries on this bird are only black for half the length, which (in a very quick perusal of google and a couple of books) seems to be a Northern Harrier feature, compared to Hen Harrier where the entire length of the outer primaries is black, reaching the underwing coverts.

Good spot Paul. Seems to have some mileage... I'm sure there's plenty of googling and checking of old photos going on. Maybe there's a small breeding population:wideeyed:

[Brian S]

The outer primaries on this bird are only black for half the length, which (in a very quick perusal of google and a couple of books) seems to be a Northern Harrier feature, compared to Hen Harrier where the entire length of the outer primaries is black, reaching the underwing coverts.

Direct link to photos - http://www.birdforum.net/showpost.php?p=1991857&postcount=104

Hi Paul

Though this seems quite a good feature, things are never quite as simple as you would like. I actually reckon that it is the amount of black on primaries 7 and 6 that is more extensively black on Hen than on Northern

http://www.flickr.com/photos/23868780@N00/306650645/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/m_geven/3351486609/ - this Hen has some underpart marks, but nothing like that in Co. Durham.

Brian S

[Brian S]

Andrea has posted on BF (with images) his thoughts on this and other claims.

http://birdforum.net/showpost.php?p=1992613&postcount=122

Brian S

[LeeEvans]

I noticed too that Killian Mullarney is still convinced that the three previous contenders (juveniles in Tacumshin, Kilcoole and North Norfolk) and this latest male highlighted from Durham by Mark Newsome are 'Marsh Hawks'.

[macrourus]

well Lee,

may be I'm not that good in English so far....

Where I did say I'm not convinced about the 3 juv. reported in KM's post ??!!!

For me they are also hudsonius...

I was not convinced by others posted there and elsewhere in some hundreds posts ... :-(((

only I was alerting in not ID ANY single harriers with a rusty or an orangish tinge on underparts, and with a least patterned underbody strightaway as hudsonius as it seems from many mails I've read, at least I've got this feeling...

So, I send an extensive mail showing how variable they are and that before clinch a 1000% positive ID and be sure behind any doubt we should consider all the possible variability (instead of simply always repeat without critics point of view all what has been previously reported) and the full set of characters!

There was a spring, a flow of photos there and everywhere of orangish harriers ....

I did just said that for some I'm not strighaway convinced (though have no real time to study all of those photos) ...but the male and the 3 juveniles posted in BF and Surfbirds really seems to be so far the best candidate ever.
________
Find headshop (http://headshop.net/)

[macrourus]

I was referring to this bird here as doubtoful:

http://www.corkdudeing.blogspot.com/


because one of the most recent messages...indeed there were really too many messages and at once I got lost...you need hours to figure out all of them and go across all of them...

also I've seen the photo posted by MOLE1 on post #22 and this is surely a normal Hen Harrier... that's why I written I had doubts...

and also about Lee's post #28

but Vincent Legrand's photos here posted claerly show a typical hudsonius, as the Killian's photos I've seen...
Again, only consider please that is not enough to see an orange and least streaked harrier to claim out an hudsonius.
________
How to roll a joint (http://howtorollajoint.net/)

[pariah]

I was referring to this bird here as doubtoful:

http://www.corkdudeing.blogspot.com/


because one of the most recent messages...indeed there were really too many messages and at once I got lost...you need hours to figure out all of them and go across all of them...

also I've seen the photo posted by MOLE1 on post #22 and this is surely a normal Hen Harrier... that's why I written I had doubts...

but Vincent Legrand's photos here posted claerly show a typical hudsonius, as the Killian's photos I've seen...
Again, only consider please that is not enough to see an orange and least streaked harrier to claim out an hudsonius.

Hi Andrea,

The bird posted there was found by myself. And I have flagged this as nothing but a Hen Harrier, Albeit Orange and a little hooded, as stated in the blog.

Owen

[LeeEvans]

Andrea

I am not sure what you are getting at here. I don't believe I have ever mentioned your name in relation to these putative Marsh Hawks - not on here, not on Birdforum nor on any of my own international blogs. I was simply adding to Brian J Small's comments that you had posted and that so had Killian.

I am afraid it is me that is doubtful of such claims and perhaps incredulous that so many are now being unearthed. I believe that I have been extremely naive and premature into believing that European Hen Harrier and the equivalent North American counterpart are actually different species. I am now totally unclear of the taxonomic position of Marsh Hawk and am wondering whether we are seeing normal variation within European Hen Harrier or perhaps influence from the eastern populations infiltrating the western populations.

I cannot see any failproof ways of identifying Marsh Hawk in a European context - perhaps you can clarify the pointers whicjh may be used for making an unequivocal identification.

Yes, the four photographed individuals discussed on Birdforum certainly share the characteristics which we have previously summarised as being definitive of Marsh Hawk (me included) but I am no longer happy with this status quo following the recent revelations and photographic evidence suggesting a high level of variation. I consider the latter may well be due to a cline in the population from east to west - I think much more work needs to be done - but that's my personal view only and certainly not that of others. I believe Birding World have already run with an article proclaiming all of these birds as Marsh Hawks.

[macrourus]

Oopss Sorry Lee,

again my English...

I thought the word STILL in your wordings after Brian's link mean this...

all its clear now...

HARD ! :puzzled::realmad::err::beer:


well, at least tomorrow I'm leaving for 20 days birding and museum checking

rather than getting nut in front of 20000 internet postings :cry:


I see your point with Marsh H....

Anyhow, always good to share opinions and different knowledges..and photoso and thoughts...

the only way to learning always more
________
Depakote sickness (http://www.classactionsettlements.org/lawsuit/depakote/)

[jamesg]

I consider the latter may well be due to a cline in the population from east to west - I think much more work needs to be done - but that's my personal view only and certainly not that of others.


Hi Lee,

As far as I understand it, Hen Harriers get progressively bigger and paler as you head east through the Palearctic, so i can't see this being a clinal situation. The molecular work that has been done, although not massively rigorous, suggests that hudsonius is at very least a good subspecies, perhaps even worthy of species status (see here (http://abcdef.uni-hd.de/institute/fak14/ipmb/phazb/pubwink/2004/31.2004.pdf)and here (http://www.springerlink.com/content/j5x1383321218436/)).

Right up until the photos of the male appeared, I was still very skeptical about this whole business. If Northern Harriers are this common, where the hell are all our Sharpies, Cooper's, American Kestrels, Red-tailed Hawks? But that male pretty much blows any skepticism out of the water.

In fact, after a bit of research and a few discussions with Alex, I'm coming round to the idea that Northern Harrier might be an 'expected' vagrant, albeit one that should only occur in very low numbers. In particular, if you look at Table 1 in this paper by Keith Bildstein (http://hawkmountain.org/media/103.Bildstein%202004.pdf), Northern Harrier is one of only three North American raptors that tick both boxes for "long-distance migrant" and "capable of long sea crossings". The other two are Peregrine and Osprey (effectively unidentifiable in a transatlantic vagrant context). Most of the other candidates fall down on their percieved ability to cross water, or their relatively short migration spans.

Nevertheless, to get three plus Northern Harriers in a single autumn, without it being a particularly big year for transatlantic vagrants in general, still stretches the limits of credulity. As far as I know, it wasn't a particularly huge year for Northern Harrier migration in the eastern US.

I half wonder whether that Durham male had something to do with it... Perhaps he's been up in Scotland sowing his wild oats all over our Hen Harrier population...?! :smile:

[pariah]

Hi Lee,

As far as I understand it, Hen Harriers get progressively bigger and paler as you head east through the Palearctic, so i can't see this being a clinal situation. The molecular work that has been done, although not massively rigorous, suggests that hudsonius is at very least a good subspecies, perhaps even worthy of species status (see here (http://abcdef.uni-hd.de/institute/fak14/ipmb/phazb/pubwink/2004/31.2004.pdf)and here (http://www.springerlink.com/content/j5x1383321218436/)).

Right up until the photos of the male appeared, I was still very skeptical about this whole business. If Northern Harriers are this common, where the hell are all our Sharpies, Cooper's, American Kestrels, Red-tailed Hawks? But that male pretty much blows any skepticism out of the water.

In fact, after a bit of research and a few discussions with Alex, I'm coming round to the idea that Northern Harrier might be an 'expected' vagrant, albeit one that should only occur in very low numbers. In particular, if you look at Table 1 in this paper by Keith Bildstein (http://hawkmountain.org/media/103.Bildstein%202004.pdf), Northern Harrier is one of only three North American raptors that tick both boxes for "long-distance migrant" and "capable of long sea crossings". The other two are Peregrine and Osprey (effectively unidentifiable in a transatlantic vagrant context). Most of the other candidates fall down on their percieved ability to cross water, or their relatively short migration spans.

Nevertheless, to get three plus Northern Harriers in a single autumn, without it being a particularly big year for transatlantic vagrants in general, still stretches the limits of credulity. As far as I know, it wasn't a particularly huge year for Northern Harrier migration in the eastern US.

I half wonder whether that Durham male had something to do with it... Perhaps he's been up in Scotland sowing his wild oats all over our Hen Harrier population...?! :smile:

James,

Is that not flawed reasoning? If these ARE all Marsh Hawks...does that not make it a good year for transatlantic vagrants defacto? How many buff bellied pipits are we up to now this autumn?

Do we understand the true rate of occurrence for this raptor? No. We are at an extremely early juncture.

And it is important at this juncture, not to skew impressions of, what may be the beginning of a pattern/trend of occurrence, by imposing pre-conceived notions of "How often, and how regular" this species is.

Surely the soundest approach is to let the pattern emerge and observe it, rather than make premature speculative comments on what it SHOULD be, based on the occurrence or lack of occurrence of other species.

Owen

[LeeEvans]

Cheers James - are you back in the UK now? Thanks for the links and additional information - photos are coming in of further Hudsonius male-types now on territory in Scotland so I really don't know what to make of it all. It is a very perplexing issue and it is going to take time to unravel. The Durham male is a real corker and shows we must all look that much closer at Hen Harriers in future.

[jamesg]

Is that not flawed reasoning? If these ARE all Marsh Hawks...does that not make it a good year for transatlantic vagrants defacto? How many buff bellied pipits are we up to now this autumn?

Do we understand the true rate of occurrence for this raptor? No. We are at an extremely early juncture.

And it is important at this juncture, not to skew impressions of, what may be the beginning of a pattern/trend of occurrence, by imposing pre-conceived notions of "How often, and how regular" this species is.

Surely the soundest approach is to let the pattern emerge and observe it, rather than make premature speculative comments on what it SHOULD be, based on the occurrence or lack of occurrence of other species.


Hi Owen,

I take your point, although I still think it's important to consider likelihood when we're deciding the 'weight of evidence' needed to accept a record.

It's undeniable, given the paucity of records of other easily identifiable species, that transatlantic vagrancy amongst raptors in general is extremely rare. We're now faced with evidence that Northern Harrier might buck that trend rather emphatically (at least this year). We should therefore at least consider the other potential explanations for this rogue pattern (e.g. previously unseen variation in Hen Harrier, or recent hybridisation involving one or two genuine vagrants that are 'stuck' on this side of the atlantic). I agree 'waiting for a pattern to emerge' is the best policy, but that doesn't mean we can't speculate in the mean time...

BTW, I think Buff-bellied Pipit is probably a red herring - I have a hunch that most of our rubescens originate from western Greenland, and therefore aren't such good indicators of transatlantic vagrancy in general. The Greenland population undertakes a long annual transoceanic crossing to Canada, making them more prone to wind drift and hinting that they might also be pre-adapted to surviving the long transatlantic crossing. My guess is our recent upturn in records reflects a flourishing of that Greenland population (although I have no evidence...).

And before anyone asks, Northern Harriers don't occur on Greeland (I checked!).

[Johnny X]

Anyone actually seen an indisputable Hen Harrier lately? ;-)

This has gone a bit Elegant Tern; you kinda suspect that they can't all be real even though the piccys are persuasive...

[Paul French]

Hi Owen,

And before anyone asks, Northern Harriers don't occur on Greeland (I checked!).

They don't occur on Iceland either. In fact, Hen Harrier is a vagrant there, so you'd hope any "Hen" Harrier would attract attention.

[pariah]

Hi Owen,

I take your point, although I still think it's important to consider likelihood when we're deciding the 'weight of evidence' needed to accept a record.

It's undeniable, given the paucity of records of other easily identifiable species, that transatlantic vagrancy amongst raptors in general is extremely rare. We're now faced with evidence that Northern Harrier might buck that trend rather emphatically (at least this year). We should therefore at least consider the other potential explanations for this rogue pattern (e.g. previously unseen variation in Hen Harrier, or recent hybridisation involving one or two genuine vagrants that are 'stuck' on this side of the atlantic). I agree 'waiting for a pattern to emerge' is the best policy, but that doesn't mean we can't speculate in the mean time...

BTW, I think Buff-bellied Pipit is probably a red herring - I have a hunch that most of our rubescens originate from western Greenland, and therefore aren't such good indicators of transatlantic vagrancy in general. The Greenland population undertakes a long annual transoceanic crossing to Canada, making them more prone to wind drift and hinting that they might also be pre-adapted to surviving the long transatlantic crossing. My guess is our recent upturn in records reflects a flourishing of that Greenland population (although I have no evidence...).

And before anyone asks, Northern Harriers don't occur on Greeland (I checked!).

I agree. But when considering alternatives, first step is nail down the Identification criteria. Playing the odds game is circumstantial at best. I mean lets not forget that all autumn long, you guys were throwing up atlantic weather charts telling us that weather patterns like this had not been seen since horse and cart days etc etc, and that we could be in for a major yank autumn.....what if you lads were right?

;)

Owen

[stu_white]

Nevertheless, to get three plus Northern Harriers in a single autumn, without it being a particularly big year for transatlantic vagrants in general, still stretches the limits of credulity.


Although not up to the heady days of the 80's, its been a pretty good yank autumn, by recent standards, surely ? In britian & ireland during October - swainson's thrush, 2 myrtle warblers, green heron, bobolink, 2 hermit thrushes, solitary sand, nighthawk (east coast), 5 Red Eyed Vireos, grey cheeked thrush & American Bittern. Late september produced Alder Fly (east coast), Bobolink and parula. Not to mention all the mega yanks in europe.

Also there is a record of a US ringed peregrine recovered in Norfolk, not sure about Osprey though?

[Paul French]

This thread is certainly worth re-reading
http://www.surfbirds.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4463

[jamesg]

Fair enough, perhaps I undersold the autumn a bit. It was a good autumn for yanks, but not a great one.

I do think it's quite likely that all three of this year's juveniles are genuine vagrants. The only point I'm trying to make is that when things as unexpected as this happen, it's always worth considering alternative explanations.

The parallel with Elegant Tern is a good one - with them, we know there are hybrids out there parading around as if they were the real deal. Terns make it obvious for us by breeding in big colonies. With harriers it's easier to sweep that possibility under the carpet...

I guess the sensible approach is to give these juvs the benefit of the doubt unless actual evidence of hybrid shenanigans comes to light (or indeed someone unearths a bunch of pics of undoubted European birds showing all the features).

James

[stu_white]

Agreed, does seem strange that like buses there were none then 3 came along.
maybe these birds will break new ID grounds and get everyone looking at old photos (in the case of the Durham bird) and new ones to establish come kind of pattern.

It took 28 days for the norfolk bird to settle down to one site now it seems to have gone awol again ! Hopefully it will re-appear when the weather calms down. when you see it, it certainly is a distinctive bird.

[LeeEvans]

Stuart

I am very interested in your Norfolk Peregrine record. Can you kindly provide further information?

[Johnny X]

Agreed, does seem strange that like buses there were none then 3 came along.

That's not strictly true...they have certainly been strongly suspected on Scilly apart from the one accepted record.

And how do we now feel about the once accepted record from Cley 26th October 1957 - 13th April 1958?

http://www.birdforum.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=292561&d=1289370601

[forktail]

Paul Higson has reported another probable adult on Orkney

F.

[Jrhough1]

Frenchy, in reply to your post #56 is it really two years since I posted that note - I guess the flood gates have opened....

the Durham bird has certainly added a new twist on the theme...

J

[LeeEvans]

And Mike Howes has photographed another interesting individual today -

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ayrshirebirding/photos/recent/2097133043/view

Scan right for three further flight images

[Paul French]

And Mike Howes has photographed another interesting individual today -

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ayrshirebirding/photos/recent/2097133043/view

Scan right for three further flight images

Seems like you have to be a member of Ayreshirebirding to view these images. Any chance the observer could stick them on here?

[Alex Lees]

Hi all

Just out of the forest and have been trying to catch up on hudsonius on this and the other channel. Things seem to have gone pretty quiet since Andrea's BW note (attached) circulated. So is it really 7 bars or bust? And the Durham male?

Alex

[forktail]

Hi all

Just out of the forest and have been trying to catch up on hudsonius on this and the other channel. Things seem to have gone pretty quiet since Andrea's BW note (attached) circulated. So is it really 7 bars or bust? And the Durham male?

Alex

Welcome back, it's bloody cold here...

The adult female Hen from North Ron that I linked to here (http://www.surfbirds.com/forum/showpost.php?p=28087&postcount=24) seems to show seven bars on P8 and a clear fourth (and also a thinner second) secondary bar.

Graham Etherington has some very good photos of the Norfolk Bird on his blog, it appears to be more marked on the flanks and underbody than I thought.

http://birds-britishbirder.blogspot.com/

F

[Alex Lees]

Welcome back, it's bloody cold here...

The adult female Hen from North Ron that I linked to here (http://www.surfbirds.com/forum/showpost.php?p=28087&postcount=24) seems to show seven bars on P8 and a clear fourth (and also a thinner second) secondary bar.

Graham Etherington has some very good photos of the Norfolk Bird on his blog, it appears to be more marked on the flanks and underbody than I thought.

http://birds-britishbirder.blogspot.com/

F

Thanks Tim, although I'm far from back yet, that's a job for the next 72 hours, weather permitting...

[Martin Garner]

Hi

I have added a very helpful posting from Julian Hough. It includes identification data on 40 (25 male and 15 female) juvenile Northern Harriers banded at Cape May, New Jersey in October 2010. Hope folks find it useful.

www.birdingfrontiers.com

Cheers Martin

[forktail]

The adult female Hen from North Ron that I linked to here (http://www.surfbirds.com/forum/showpost.php?p=28087&postcount=24) seems to show seven bars on P8 and a clear fourth (and also a thinner second) secondary bar.
F

Could anyone comment on this bird?

Is it just me seeing things that aren't there? :err:

F.

[GoneBirding]

Could anyone comment on this bird?

Is it just me seeing things that aren't there? :err:

F.

Hi F,

Don't worry you are seeing things I can see too:laugh:

I think the problem here is we are heading out and finding birds which show 1 or 2 "feature's" of Marsh Hawk/NHarrier hudsonius on various ages of known cyaneus etc. We are perhaps missing the "bigger picture" by looking too hard at any one single feature... No one yet seems to have found a known hatch year cyaneus showing all the features needed, on current knowledge, to claim a hudsonius of that age. It is perhaps one of those that needs to tick all the boxes for id, rather like a some gulls I can think of! Cyaneus can, it seems, show one or two feature's of hudsonius, but is this a suprise in two so closely related forms and does this mean we now cannot identify individuals as some have said.... I'm not so sure.

The Norfolk bird does show a tad more streaking than I first thought too, but this does not seem out of the range for hudsonius reading Julian H's article on Martin Garner's website and looking at the photo's on there, and it didn't to me look like it extended onto the central and lower belly. The streaking that is present looks somewhat different in "feel" to that you find on cyaneus too perhaps?

ATB

Steph'

[Alex Lees]

I think the problem here is we are heading out and finding birds which show 1 or 2 "feature's" of Marsh Hawk/NHarrier hudsonius on various ages of known cyaneus etc. We are perhaps missing the "bigger picture" by looking too hard at any one single feature... No one yet seems to have found a known hatch year cyaneus showing all the features needed, on current knowledge, to claim a hudsonius of that age.

I totally agree that we need to be aware of the risk of 'making too much' of these pseudo-huds but what for example would you call Andrea's bird here (http://www.surfbirds.com/forum/showpost.php?p=28704&postcount=65)? And where do you draw the line with look-alikes, considering the apparent zone-of-overlap?

[Jrhough1]

Alex,

I think we all agree there are some scary birds out there, especially that one.
Based on Andrea's note though, it seems to give the slight impression that Marsh Hawks are typically unstreaked below, a point that I disagree with...most of the birds I see are streaked (and males on eye color). Mark Golley and I were talking about this feature and he asked if males were more streaked than females. It seems that males predominate in my photos, but a closer look at a sample of juv. female Marsh Hawks would help determine if this sex has more of a tendency to appear more, or less, unstreaked below than males.

And, conversely, figuring the same thing out in cyaneus might allude to something that might help the issue...it would be nice if all juv male Hen Harriers are unstreaked and all juv. Marsh Hawks are streaked...that would be the best Christmas present, EVER! Well, not quite....

Take care,

Ju

[Alex Lees]

Alex,

I think we all agree there are some scary birds out there, especially that one.
Based on Andrea's note though, it seems to give the slight impression that Marsh Hawks are typically unstreaked below, a point that I disagree with...most of the birds I see are streaked (and males on eye color). Mark Golley and I were talking about this feature and he asked if males were more streaked than females. It seems that males predominate in my photos, but a closer look at a sample of juv. female Marsh Hawks would help determine if this sex has more of a tendency to appear more, or less, unstreaked below than males.

And, conversely, figuring the same thing out in cyaneus might allude to something that might help the issue...it would be nice if all juv male Hen Harriers are unstreaked and all juv. Marsh Hawks are streaked...that would be the best Christmas present, EVER! Well, not quite....

Take care,

Ju

Hi Julian

Certainly is a scary one, I can't see why it isn't a Marsh Hawk using the Martin criteria. I'd also be the first to agree that many Marsh Hawks are quite heavily streaked, its just that they are on average much less heavily streaked than Hens. Of course that doesn't help with the the diagnosis of extralimital individuals, just an indication that you can separate the two subspecies in long series based on average traits...

There's practically a PhD here, at least an MSc thesis looking into the potential genetic linkage between character traits, (i.e. maybe the gene controlling extent of breast streaking is linked to that that controls ground-colouration) many of which are probably not indepdendent that dictate the phenotype of these beasts...

How do we coax Surfbirds own Graham into talking about his UC thesis....

cheers

Alex

[forktail]

So is the North Ron ad female I mentioned probably just a Hen Harrier showing four secondary bars, with a clearly narrower second secondary bar and a wingtip pattern that fits Northern (or even has seven bars on at least one primary perhaps allowing for some displaced coverts). Additionally the inner hand trailing edge is also paler. I know id criteria are in development and there is overlap etc but a wing pattern like this strikes me as very worthy of note? Is this bird a 'psuedo hud'?

[GoneBirding]

So is the North Ron ad female I mentioned probably just a Hen Harrier showing four secondary bars, with a clearly narrower second secondary bar and a wingtip pattern that fits Northern (or even has seven bars on at least one primary perhaps allowing for some displaced coverts). Additionally the inner hand trailing edge is also paler. I know id criteria are in development and there is overlap etc but a wing pattern like this strikes me as very worthy of note? Is this bird a 'psuedo hud'?

Do you know when it was trapped?

Must admit not even looked at adult female ID of huds!

ATB

Steph'

[forktail]

Do you know when it was trapped?

Must admit not even looked at adult female ID of huds!

ATB

Steph'

Hi there

I've no idea Steph. I wasn't even sure of the age to be honest. I was totally baffled by it. I expected someone to say it was just a normal Hen and to tell me I was losing the plot.

Just got back in from the old hometown, no Waxwings on King Street or Chesterfield Road for me today though... plenty more snow than here, mind...

[Alex Lees]

Hi there

I've no idea Steph. I wasn't even sure of the age to be honest. I was totally baffled by it. I expected someone to say it was just a normal Hen and to tell me I was losing the plot.

Just got back in from the old hometown, no Waxwings on King Street or Chesterfield Road for me today though... plenty more snow than here, mind...

I'm sure its been linked before, but this PDF (http://www.ibercajalav.net/img/113_HenHarrierCcyaneus.pdf) is pretty handy. Having a look at a small sub-sample of images, cyaneus also seems to show an inter-sexual difference in the width of the median secondary bar, with males showing a narrower band than females - this illustrated nicely in the PDF above. Likewise looking at subadults and adults, there seems to be a tendency for adults to show more primary bars.

A couple more examples of variation in wing-tip pattern (in otherwise standard-looking cyaneus).

Check out this bird (http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures/birds_user_uploads/36670_UU_26075_Blaa_Kaerhoeg_Female_1.jpg)shows four bars on p10 and six on p8.

And then look at this one (http://www.tarsiger.com/gallery/index.php?pic_id=seimola1053695343&lang=eng) which shows a faint sixth bar on P8 and P7 and also exhibits the narrower median band (here sexed by the ringers as a male).

Back on look-alikes, have a look at the breast-patterning on this newly posted cyaneus (http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?id=showpicture&picture_id=36803) - a nominal pseudo-hud but it lacks the appropriate primary pattern and boa solidity. Still its a good one to complete the chain of variation between population-average cyaneus and hudsonius 'doppelgänger'.

Anyone got a DNA sample of the Norfolk bird yet?

cheers

Alex

[Jrhough1]

Hi Alex,

That was a cool pdf you linked to..I hadn't actually seen it before. I think comparing criteria that's been discussed for juv. shouldn't be transposed onto adults.

Also, to push the envelope farther on streaking on the underparts, someone might want to look at these juv. orange-cyaneus and determine what sex is the most/least streaked and then compare them to similar ages in hudsonius.

If juv. female hudsonius have a tendency to be consisitently less streaked than juv. female cyaneus, then correctly sexing birds in the field and analyzing the streakiness may offer another crutch for the id. criteria. Of course, it's all down to making sure the evidence is valid and reliable.

Ju

[Jrhough1]

to follow on...

I haven't gotten into much detail of separating cyaneus (I'm sure Dick and Killian will cover that in Birding World) from hudsonius but from the images you linked to they show the variation in underwing patterns that I noted in my piece on Martin Garner's sitehttp://www.birdingfrontiers.com.

On those birds in your links, they still show typical cyaneus traits (head pattern, shape and extent of streaking on the breast/belly and utc etc). Also, many cyaneus (like in the images posted) show the white surrounding the rear of the eye (often broken in hudsonius) and also, in first-year males, the eye color in the small number of cyaneus I looked at in the pdf are typically cleaner yellowish, rather than bluish/olivey-grey. It does vary in both subspecies, but again, taking a larger sample size may show a bias for one to show yellowish eyes vs blueish/grey and thus maybe another character in separating males in early fall?
All that stuff is beyond my time or inclination right now, but maybe it would offer up additional criteria that can be added to the (admittedly somewhat "dodgy") suite we already have and make it slightly stronger ???

It certainly is a minefield of subjectiveness and while some birds will cause frustration, I think we have propelled the issue into another dimension and solidified some helpful and some not so helpful criteria. I feel comfortable that the three(?) birds this autumn fulfill the criteria to be used as decent benchmarks going forward.

It could be worse......think Elegant Tern!

[Alex Lees]

On those birds in your links, they still show typical cyaneus traits (head pattern, shape and extent of streaking on the breast/belly and utc etc). Also, many cyaneus (like in the images posted) show the white surrounding the rear of the eye (often broken in hudsonius) and also, in first-year males, the eye color in the small number of cyaneus I looked at in the pdf are typically cleaner yellowish, rather than bluish/olivey-grey. It does vary in both subspecies, but again, taking a larger sample size may show a bias for one to show yellowish eyes vs blueish/grey and thus maybe another character in separating males in early fall?

Hey Julian, all

I linked those pics as indicated purely to show some more 'extremes' in variation in underwing pattern in cyaneus, as it has been mooted that the six-barred Orkney bird might be 'exceptional', yet these images reinforce the notion that such birds might not be that rare. As far as subspecies go, Northern Harrier is quite a well-marked form and looking at long series of skins and images they are distinctive. Yet we must still look at probabilities to decide whether the the chance of multiple instances of vagrancy in hudsonius is greater than the expression of all hudsonius phenotypic traits in multiple cyaneus. The problem is of course that without reference genetic data we can't confirm whether or not what we are assigning to extreme cyaneus is actually hudsonius and vice versa. One can only assume that birds such as those in Italy are not hudsonius on the grounds that they are less likely to be vagrants than candidates in SW Ireland. Yet that on its own is not really a satisfactory manner in which to identify a vagrant as the arrival of a Northern Harrier is improbable to start with (based on the frequency with which they are encountered at-sea in the North Atlantic) and vagrants might filter down through Southern European migration bottlenecks.

Given the spate of candidate hudsonius then records committees on both sides of the Irish Sea will have to draw up criteria for the acceptance of hudsonius and given the gradient in 'fit' between say the near-perfect Wexford bird to this (http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_UynBjCBqJKI/TPK_fLWjveI/AAAAAAAAA4Q/tsybhigOZQ8/s1600/harrier+2.png) Cork one (which also needs to be assessed against the criteria) then this is no easy task...

happy new year to one and all....

Alex

[Jrhough1]

can't argue with any of that...

best for the New Year

Julian

[JanJ]

Although variation is rather well covered, here´s a few more hudsonius.

http://www.symbolicmessengers.com/Wildlife/WTG/Birds/Raptors/Harrier_C22296.jpg
http://www.symbolicmessengers.com/Wildlife/WTG/Birds/Raptors/Harrier_C22297.jpg
http://www.symbolicmessengers.com/Wildlife/WTG/Birds/Raptors/Harrier_C22298.jpg

http://www.symbolicmessengers.com/Wildlife/WTG/Birds/Raptors/Northern_Harrier_C22538.jpg
http://www.symbolicmessengers.com/Wildlife/WTG/Birds/Raptors/Harrier_C23131.jpg
http://www.symbolicmessengers.com/Wildlife/WTG/Birds/Raptors/Harrier_C23108.jpg

JanJ

[Alex Lees]

Hey all

Can anyone give me a synopsis or better yet forward a PDF....

Mullarney & Forsman 2011. Identification of Northern Harriers and vagrants in Ireland, Norfolk and Durham. Birding World 23: 509-523.

What's new?

cheers

Alex

[JanJ]

Hey all

Can anyone give me a synopsis or better yet forward a PDF....

Mullarney & Forsman 2011. Identification of Northern Harriers and vagrants in Ireland, Norfolk and Durham. Birding World 23: 509-523.

What's new?

cheers

Alex

Wow, second that!

JanJ

[GoneBirding]

Hey all

Can anyone give me a synopsis or better yet forward a PDF....

Mullarney & Forsman 2011. Identification of Northern Harriers and vagrants in Ireland, Norfolk and Durham. Birding World 23: 509-523.

What's new?

cheers

Alex

Snap.... gave up BW a loooong time ago! I do know they say they consider the UK and Eire birds this autumn as valid identifications.......

ATB

Steph'

[LeeEvans]

I must admit Steph that when I heard that about the Birding World article I was astonished. I hope to get a chance to browse the article at some stage to find out what revelations I have missed out on.

One day last week I was lucky enough to get some very good perched views of the Norfolk bird, and then an excellent fly-around. I found myself very unimpressed with it - identification wise. I could not believe how heavily streaked it was and how little the head seemed to be particularly 'dark-hooded'. The structure and jizz were also quite different to the Tacumshin individual, although the sex may have some relation in that. Perhaps relevant though was a juvenile male Hen Harrier we saw later on Scolt Head Island - this bird was quite extensively developed on the upperparts with much in the way of new grey feathers emerging. The Thornham leg-dangling harrier with its pale eye (and therefore presumably a male) was still very uniform dark chocolate-brown on the upperparts - perhaps there are major differences in moult timings in both forms.

Along with a binful of other claims I have been attempting to validate, the rather orange-washed juvenile 'Hen Harrier' that has been roosting at St Just, West Cornwall, with other wintering birds since October 2010 is also another very interesting individual sharing a number of similar traits.

[forktail]

Perhaps there will soon be a major paper based on the study of a large number of skins/photographs/field sightings and the like, with an analysis that puts a number on the % of harriers showing the features quoted.

I was surprised that the BB paper detailing wingtip patterns etc didn't quote things such as sample size and location of birds.

[Alex Lees]

Anyone know anything about the recent Wicklow report? I guess with the Lewis bird that makes 4 'confirmed' hudsonius i.e. ticking all pre-existing boxes and at least 2 more pending from this winter.

Had a little look at counts from raptor watchpoints (http://www.rpi-project.org/publications/TP-06.pdf) and at-sea surveys (http://elibrary.unm.edu/sora/Auk/v100n02/p0488-p0490.pdf) to try and make sense of the numbers.... [see attached].

Alex

[Martin Scott]

http://hebsbirding.wordpress.com/2011/02/20/marsh-hawk-returns-briefly/

Lewis bird back again today and with a male Hen Harrier. Must admit I would like scope views to see the male better, but it seemed to have extensive black in the primaries....

Several raptor workers have told me they have seen 'dark' and 'orange' harriers on Scotlands moors in the summer over the years. At least now the true need to scrutinise these birds has been flagged.

MSS