Question over Oriental Pratincole feature?

[James P. Smith]

Greetings birders,

Last night whilst admiring Graham Catley's super image set of the Frampton Oriental Pratincole I was struck by the apparent prominence of the pale tips to secondaries forming a weak but nice trailing edge. It can be seen most clearly on the images taken against a dark background.
http://pewit.blogspot.com/search/label/Oriental%20Pratincole

Whilst I don't meant to question the id at all of such a well documented bird, I was wondering if pale tips to the secondaries is particularly normal for Oriental Pratincole, especially in spring?

Having had a couple of 'scares' with Collard Pratincole in Israel, I looked into this feature quite a bit in 2003 and remember being told that Oriental Pratincole shouldn't show any pale whitish/buffy tips to the secondaries at all.


Does anyone have any thoughts, or experience, on the variation of this feature? I will confess to having no experience with the subject species.

Best to all,

James

[Alex Lees]

Greetings birders,

Last night whilst admiring Graham Catley's super image set of the Frampton Oriental Pratincole I was struck by the apparent prominence of the pale tips to secondaries forming a weak but nice trailing edge. It can be seen most clearly on the images taken against a dark background.
http://pewit.blogspot.com/search/label/Oriental%20Pratincole

Whilst I don't meant to question the id at all of such a well documented bird, I was wondering if pale tips to the secondaries is particularly normal for Oriental Pratincole, especially in spring?

Having had a couple of 'scares' with Collard Pratincole in Israel, I looked into this feature quite a bit in 2003 and remember being told that Oriental Pratincole shouldn't show any pale whitish/buffy tips to the secondaries at all.


Does anyone have any thoughts, or experience, on the variation of this feature? I will confess to having no experience with the subject species.

Best to all,

James

A limited pale trailing edge is fine - witness all the confusion over (the same?) bird last year:

http://www.digitalwildlife.co.uk/birds/CollPrat.htm

Cf:
http://www.sofnet.org/index.asp?lev=938&typ=1

&

http://www.eurobirding.com/birdingmagazines/artinfo.php?id=7942

[Brian S]

Is this the same bird as last year returned?

Brian S

[Howard King]

http://www.eurobirding.com/birdingmagazines/artinfo.php?id=7942

Alex do you know if this article is available online

"Title Identification of Collared Pratincole and Oriental Pratincole - a critical review of characters Dutch Birding
Author Gerald Driessens - Lars Svensson
Language English
Magazine Dutch Birding, vol. 27, no. 1, 2005"

[Alex Lees]

Is this the same bird as last year returned?

Brian S

Given its relative rarity (http://www.tarsiger.com/news/index.php?sp=find&lang=eng&species=15830&sel=1&place=&country=&day=0&month=0&year=&find_button=Search)in Europe and previous instance(s) of returning Collared Pratincoles then it must seem pretty likely....


Alex do you know if this article is available online
"Title Identification of Collared Pratincole and Oriental Pratincole - a critical review of characters Dutch Birding
Author Gerald Driessens - Lars Svensson
Language English
Magazine Dutch Birding, vol. 27, no. 1, 2005"

I'm afraid its not, although many back issues (http://www.dutchbirding.nl/journal_pdf.php)are available in PDF...

[Howard King]

I'm afraid its not, although many back issues (http://www.dutchbirding.nl/journal_pdf.php)are available in PDF...

That a shame -We get large flocks of Collared on passage and my field guides provide little assistance in separating the two. One oriental turned up in Kuwait not so long ago and the species remains a distinct possibility here. From the notes provided on the original link ( http://pewit.blogspot.com/search/lab...l%20Pratincole ) the following pointers are mentioned - I for one would most appreciate some clarification for future reference.


The nostril shape
The tail shape and pattern
The rich coloured nape and throat patch
The long legs
Restricted red on the underside of the bill base


I have been through many images of oriental on the web and other than length of tail and red on the underside of the bill could not put my finger on what I was meant to be looking for.. ID from images is always difficult anyhow.

I have attached two images of Collared both from here - the first taken by myself on the 3 May and the second by Adrian Drummond-Hill the day before at the same location. (See also http://www.hawar-islands.com/blog/aj_stub.php/2009/04/ ) Other than the tail which sadly is not visible on our shots I couldn't say with any certainty that our birds where different to that being discussed based on the limited information I have for the other pointers. Any clues would be most appreciated.

[joshjenkinsshaw]

Hi Howard

I have attatched the article I think your after.

Cheers,
Josh

[Howard King]

Hi Howard

I have attatched the article I think your after.

Cheers,
Josh

Many thanks Josh - off for a good read- have now finished and what a bloody good read it is - written in such a way that simpletons like myself can understand it - get it while you can absolutely essential reading

[Howard King]

You can blame Josh :wink:- but a little knowledge is dangerous - as I read through the ID paper on Pratincoles I did so with the two image sets of the Frampton Oriental Pratincole by Graham Catley's open. The purpose to tick off each of the 19 points of separation as listed by the authors of the paper. At the end of the day I would say only two appeared to be consistent with the ID plus some of the pointers noted by Graham even given the large number of photos were inconclusive and to a point misleading as key factors for use in trying to separate the two species. The biggest problem is that the lighting on the bird changes from one image to another - a fact clearly mimicking field conditions perfectly. As an exercise in ID a good learning curve. Try it and see how you get on.

I also had open pictures of the Kuwait Birds - probably one of the best Oriental pictures on the web (http://www.alsirhan.com/Blog/?cat=19) by Abdulrahman Al-Sirhan taken on May 4th, 2008. From these one can tick all the boxes of the pointers visible.

Could I pick an Oriental out in a crowd now most probably yes - on its own hopefully so thanks again Josh for the link to the paper and to James for raising the question.

[JanJ]

Here are a few good images - showing the spesific features associated with maldivarum:

http://www.hkbws.org.hk/BBS/viewthread.php?tid=11174&extra=page%3D2

http://www.hkbws.org.hk/BBS/viewthread.php?tid=11032&extra=page%3D2

http://www.hkbws.org.hk/BBS/viewthread.php?tid=11165&extra=page%3D2

http://www.hkbws.org.hk/BBS/viewthread.php?tid=11175&extra=page%3D2

http://www.hkbws.org.hk/BBS/viewthread.php?tid=11194&extra=page%3D2

http://www.hkbws.org.hk/BBS/viewthread.php?tid=11160&extra=page%3D2

http://www.hkbws.org.hk/BBS/viewthread.php?tid=11206&extra=page%3D2

http://www.hkbws.org.hk/BBS/viewthread.php?tid=11018&extra=page%3D2

http://www.hkbws.org.hk/BBS/viewthread.php?tid=4877&extra=page%3D1

http://www.pbase.com/bluetitan/orientalpratincole

JanJ

[Surnia]

Whilst the subject of the differences between Oriental and Collared Pratincoles has been raised, did anyone on here see (and hopefully photograph or video) the Pratincole sp. at Pilling, Lancs on 7th July 1997? It was originally identified as a Collared but in flight showed no white edges to the secondaries and a short tail, which surely Collared should still show in mid/late summer and some observers at the time did suggest it looked more Oriental than Collared but I don't think was ever submitted as such. Might be worth revisiting if anyone has notes that are better than mine!

Neil

[RichB]

Whilst the subject of the differences between Oriental and Collared Pratincoles has been raised, did anyone on here see (and hopefully photograph or video) the Pratincole sp. at Pilling, Lancs on 7th July 1997? It was originally identified as a Collared but in flight showed no white edges to the secondaries and a short tail, which surely Collared should still show in mid/late summer and some observers at the time did suggest it looked more Oriental than Collared but I don't think was ever submitted as such. Might be worth revisiting if anyone has notes that are better than mine!

Neil

Well done for bringing this individual up - a one evening bird, turning up just prior to The Netherlands' first Oriental Pratincole. My notes say 'Collared Pratincole - almost certainly this species though the white trailing edge not visible on secondaries at views about 40-50 yards though others had seen it... tail seemed short with no tail streamers visible. On the deck it seemed a dead cert for Collared - long-legged appearance and 1/3 of the bill from the base was red. Still present at 9.40pm.'

Probably a rather simplistic view from a 16 year old at the time, but that's how I saw it on the day. And in retrospect, my comments make identification of 'on the deck' pratincoles sound a doddle and a precise science. Which is far from the case.

[macrourus]

just a quick thought from Pantelleria where I'm since 27th April---- after the nice trip around Sicily with Mr. Small Brain:eek: :puzzled:

ANY fresh feather has a narrow pale tip and trailing edge...any fresh wing show more or less a narrow and thin pale trailing edge. A broad pale trailing edge to wings and tail is for ex. typical for a juv. raptor and led you gto may age a raptor against light flying distance just on that...but should be used with great experience as any fresh adult may show a pale trailing edge though narrower (and of course in median to big raptors always uneven !! due to different moult stages among feathers of different generations!)
So, also in pratincoles a narrow trailing edge is not a problem at all with fresh birds (for ex. ie a fresh adult in spring vs. a 2ndcy) as long is not a quite broad and well demeraked white tips forming a conspicous trailing edge (that is after all also weared off when feathers are abraded in Collared Praticnole).. so is not so easy and stright and deserve a particular attention
ciao

Andrea C
Pap? Natale Fan Club :beer:
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[Colin Key]

---- after the nice trip around Sicily with Mr. Small Brain:eek: :puzzled:

Andrea C
Papà Natale Fan Club :beer:

Did you have a difference of opinion??

Colin :laugh::laugh::laugh:

[macrourus]

Not at all.... we were perfectly in synthoni and the trip has been fantastic...Brian is one of the very top birder I ever met in the field !!!!
Was just a personal jockes about our big fun on Indian trip tales and on our funny games about a Santa Claus photos...but hard to tell and explain...was to remind Brian our nice days there....he is GREAT and a GREAT BRAIN... !!!! indeed the jocke was abouty funny names pronunced in funny way by non English people :certifiable:
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[JanJ]

Positive as always Andrea, and complimenting other people - I like that! :beer:

JanJ

[Colin Key]

Not at all.... we were perfectly in synthoni and the trip has been fantastic...Brian is one of the very top birder I ever met in the field !!!!
Was just a personal jockes about our big fun on Indian trip tales and on our funny games about a Santa Claus photos...but hard to tell and explain...was to remind Brian our nice days there....he is GREAT and a GREAT BRAIN... !!!! indeed the jocke was abouty funny names pronunced in funny way by non English people :certifiable:

Andrea,

My reply was in jest - I am fully aware of Brian's prowess in the birding world (both from what I have read and also from talking to people who know him), but from now on he will always be "Mr Small Brain" :laugh::laugh::laugh:.

Colin :smile:

[ampelinus]

Is this the same bird as last year returned?

Brian S

Hi Brian,

I would think that of all the records of Oriental Pratincole probably only 4 birds were involved. The 3 records in 93 were I would imagine the same individual & last years bird is probably the same bird that's in Lincolnshire at the moment. Of cousre this is only thoery & I could be wrong.

Cheers, A.

[Brian S]

Not at all.... we were perfectly in synthoni and the trip has been fantastic...Brian is one of the very top birder I ever met in the field !!!!
Was just a personal jockes about our big fun on Indian trip tales and on our funny games about a Santa Claus photos...but hard to tell and explain...was to remind Brian our nice days there....he is GREAT and a GREAT BRAIN... !!!! indeed the jocke was abouty funny names pronunced in funny way by non English people :certifiable:

Andrea has hurt me deeply with comments about my small brain (amongst other small things...).

I shall never eat fennel without thinking of him....

Brian S

[macrourus]

Fennels are goody and I love them... :eek::laugh:

PS. Thanks JanJ always too kind with me :beer:
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