Duck help

[exeter_uk]

Hi guys,

I spotted this in a local park today, due to its location im assuming its an ornamental bird or perhaps a hybrid of one, any ideas?

Cheers James

[Colin Key]

Pochard x Mallard?

Colin

[mafting]

Looks like a Pintail hybrid? I think with a Mallard. Not sure where the black breast would come from though, so maybe Pochard is involved...

[MichaelF]

Also thinking perhaps Pintail × Pochard. Yukk!

Haven't got a pic of it, but there's been a Mallard × Eider hybrid on the Coquet Estuary (Northumbs) the past 3 or 4 years. Duck really get up to some strange antics!

[mafting]

I've seen a Mallard x Egyptian Goose, which was a sight to behold. All we need is a Muscovy x Egyptian and we could have a contender for ugliest bird in the World...

[forktail]

I was wondering if it was a Mallard x Red-crested Pochard?

some examples are here: http://10000birds.com/hybrid-mallards.htm

F.

[birdertrev]

My first thoughts were Mallard/Red crested Pochard

Trev

[mafting]

Good call. Not sure where the bill comes into it though?

Is RCP x Pintail an option?!

[MichaelF]

Wrong bill colour / pattern, surely?

Dunno if Pintail × Red-crested Pochard might be an option, though?

Edit: looks like I didn't type quite fast enough!!

[Alcedo atthis]

This is Pintail x RC Pochard- These always seem to have a bill with the pintail pattern, and if you look at scapulars and tertials, you also see the features of both parent species. If RCP hybridisis with an Anas duck with a bluegrey bill, this seems to be very noticeable in the resulting hybrids (e.g. Wigeon x RCP, or as here , Pintail x RCP- not that i have seen pictures of many of those, only one of the 1st combination and 5 of the latter) In contrast mallard x RCP can have a yellow, orange, reddish or even a mainly black bill with some reddish parts.

strange enough-
i was asked for ID of some photos of a similar bird from Moscow a few days ago, which could have been a twin brother of this one. The main difference was that the Moscow bird had a darker brown head.

[Alcedo atthis]

I've seen a Mallard x Egyptian Goose, which was a sight to behold. All we need is a Muscovy x Egyptian and we could have a contender for ugliest bird in the World...

Your wish is granted:

http://www.pbase.com/image/36284266


:beer:

[mafting]

Your wish is granted:

http://www.pbase.com/image/36284266


:beer:

Thanks, I think!

How do you find all these things? Does your back garden contain the Pond of Dr Moreau?!

[Colin Key]

Does your back garden contain the Pond of Dr Moreau?!

No, his real name is Bernard Matthews ( a well-known Norfolk "birder" who has recently retired) - "Beautiful" :laugh:

Colin

[Alcedo atthis]

sorry, don´t understand what you mean, Colin.
:err::puzzled:

mafting,
I have been interested in hybrid waterfowl ID since 1994 when i ran into an Eider x Shelduck hybrid and a probable Mallard x Gadwall hybrid (that one only identifdied years later) on the same trip at the same island in Germany.
(not the one of Dr. Moreau, fortunately- I think both these birds have been natural hybrids)

later on I was wondering if hybridisation could pose a problem to species, so i got even more interested in the topic. It is surprising what is possible in waterfowl even in nature. Not to speak about what happens in aviculture (mostly only accidentally and not on purpose, luckily) and is sometimes set free afterwards- several exotic hybrids i have seen had waterfowl breeders rings.:hmpf:


so i found some links and photos over the years...and gained some experience in hybrid ID.

I am only glad I didn´t encounter this one yet:

http://beplacid.net/pics/humour/duck-crocodile.jpg

[MichaelF]

sorry, don´t understand what you mean, Colin.
:err::puzzled:

Take a look here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Matthews that'll explain all (take particular note of the 'Controversies' section).

How common are duck hybrids among wild ducks? (as opposed to those which have some history of human captivity). I wouldn't be surprised if the great majority of hybrids result from escapes from duck collections of birds that have lost their normal courtship behaviours.

[Alcedo atthis]

Take a look here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Matthews that'll explain all (take particular note of the 'Controversies' section).

How common are duck hybrids among wild ducks? (as opposed to those which have some history of human captivity). I wouldn't be surprised if the great majority of hybrids result from escapes from duck collections of birds that have lost their normal courtship behaviours.


Thanks, now i understand! sounds really awfull.

That is a difficult question, Michael. I have no absolute numbers and can only speak for what i have seen over the years. Several hybrid combinations happen quite easily in the wild, for example male mallards and male Redcrested pochard seem to be too interested in females of other species in the wild.
In the wild at a low level there seems to be hybridisation between most of the ducks within the genus Anas; and also (maybe even more?) between most ducks within the genus Aythya. As these hybrids within the genus seem to be fertile in most (all?) cases, they can backcross with one of the parent species and produce F1 hybrids which often are again quite close to the parent species (and this even more if they produce F2-those can be practically indistinguishable from the parent species to which the backcrosses happened.
However, the events are sufficiently rare that they do not seem to threaten species boundaries in general.

But in some cases mitochondrial DNA shows that there has been quite some introgression from one species into another in the past ...

http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=18998205

There seem to be results for mallard and spotbill that may indicate something similar if I recall correctly.

[Alcedo atthis]

Slightly off topic:

This article by Randler in Journal of Ornithology in 2004 may also be interesting:

Frequency of bird hybrids: does detectability make all the difference?

"Abstract: The number of hybrids recorded in the field may be biased because these data may simply reflect the detectability of a hybrid pairing. A questionnaire was constructed for assessing the detectability of natural avian hybrids. Ratings from 17 independent experienced observers were subjected to factor analysis and all observers loaded onto the same single factor. The reliability was extremely high (Cronbachs alpha=0.96). Initially, I found a weak positive and significant correlation between the number of hybrids and their detectability index (rs=0.268; P=0.015; n=81). However, the respective correlations within three orders and one family containing enough hybrids for analysis revealed non-significant results. Significant differences existed among orders with respect to both detectability and hybrid frequency. At the family level, differences existed in detectability, but not in the number of hybrids recorded. Furthermore, I found no publication bias. These results suggest a general influence of detectability and on higher taxonomic levels, and that either detectability or the number of hybrids vary between orders possibly due to phylogenetic effects. Data about hybrids should be used in a cautious manner in analyses across a wide range of species, but seem unbiased when restricted to analyses within orders and families. As a rule of thumb, distinctness of hybrids seems to be a function of the plumage difference between the hybridising species."

[mafting]

Slightly off topic:

This article by Randler in Journal of Ornithology in 2004 may also be interesting:

Frequency of bird hybrids: does detectability make all the difference?

There is the problem of 'presumed' hybrids, which is what most records are (few are genetically tested, for example). These unvalidated records commonly made it into the literature in previous decades, but many could just be aberrant birds of a full species. There are plenty of 'records' of hybrid tits, for example, but out of the millions of nestlings that have been ringed in Britain, I'm not aware of a single case of hybirds being found.

So how reliable is the data the paper was based on, if it is just the 'opinion' of the 17 "experiecned observers"?

[Alcedo atthis]

There is the problem of 'presumed' hybrids, which is what most records are (few are genetically tested, for example). These unvalidated records commonly made it into the literature in previous decades, but many could just be aberrant birds of a full species. There are plenty of 'records' of hybrid tits, for example, but out of the millions of nestlings that have been ringed in Britain, I'm not aware of a single case of hybirds being found.

So how reliable is the data the paper was based on, if it is just the 'opinion' of the 17 "experiecned observers"?

Yes , certainly, I also wouldn´t claim to know too much about hybrids in all families of birds.

And the tits are a good example where more hybrids may be claimed than really happen- I have for example yet to hear of a DNA proven bird of the combination great x blue tit (but Randler does not list that combination, however, some other tit hybrids)

I could PM a copy if you are interested...

But I think with Anatidae it is somewhat different, in this group hybridisation seems fairly frequent- though i would not be able to say how frequent exactly -i just do not have the data for that.

[mafting]

Yes, a PM of the paper would be good, please. Thanks.

I agree, hybridisation seems a lot more common in waterfowl, which is odd if one considers that these are more ancient species than e.g. parids. They should have diverged more?!

What I also find intersting is how readily finches hybridise in captivity (e.g. Crossbill x Chaffinch, Linnet x Greenfinch, amongst a myriad of others) when these seem unheard of in the wild. The same could be said for falcons in captivity.

[MichaelF]

What I also find intersting is how readily finches hybridise in captivity (e.g. Crossbill x Chaffinch, Linnet x Greenfinch, amongst a myriad of others) when these seem unheard of in the wild. The same could be said for falcons in captivity.

Which comes back to my suggestion above that hybrid ducks are the result of escapes from captivity, and are probably also very rare in the wild where there has been no human interference.

Maybe with the advent of captive breeding of falcons for falconry (something only developed very recently compared to captive breeding of ducks), escapes which have not learned the natural courtship behaviour of their species will result in a rise in levels of hybridisation observed in the future.

[mafting]

Maybe with the advent of captive breeding of falcons for falconry (something only developed very recently compared to captive breeding of ducks), escapes which have not learned the natural courtship behaviour of their species will result in a rise in levels of hybridisation observed in the future.

Courtship behaviour is mostly innate.

[Alcedo atthis]

Which comes back to my suggestion above that hybrid ducks are the result of escapes from captivity, and are probably also very rare in the wild where there has been no human interference.

Maybe with the advent of captive breeding of falcons for falconry (something only developed very recently compared to captive breeding of ducks), escapes which have not learned the natural courtship behaviour of their species will result in a rise in levels of hybridisation observed in the future.


I think the situation with ducks may be partly different than with other families of birds. Why?

I think that at least in some species of ducks females lay eggs in nests of conspecifics, and also inn nests of other species. In the latter case a male may be imprinted on the wrong species.


also two of the commonest pairings in Anas-at least in my impression- seem to be Eurasian x American wigeon and Mallard x Pintail.
There in both cases the display performed by the males is fairly similar.

Also unpaired mallard males and redcrested pochard males seem to be interested in any other female duck getting close to them. So maybe it is not surprising that in areas where both species occur Mallard x RCP is one of the commonest hybrids.

Also there are several very old records of hybrids between duck species (from times where less waterfowl breeders were around and from species which partly where not very easy to breed in captivity--among these are mallard x Pintail, mallard x teal (named as a specie Bimaculated duck)and smew x common goldeneye (Named as a species "Entensaeger"= could be translated as Ducklike merganser)

[Alcedo atthis]

I also have to agree to Michael`s point however,

sometimes you see a lot of hybrids from captivity! I think this is in part due to the fact that breeding of hybrids is generally not encouraged in waterfowl breeders (at least in most countries), while it seems to be highly encouraged in Finch and falcon breeders.
(So on the one hand in waterfowl breeders hybrids are not mentioned and are removed fairly fast from the Gene pool- and this might include setting them free sometimes-for example just last week I saw a hybrid Teal x Cinnamon Teal in Braunschweig, Germany , which had what was probably a breeders plastic ring)

On the other hand--if there are single escapes which survive and adapt to the environment here, they will also try to breed- and choose a relative belonging to an other species.

[Alcedo atthis]

Courtship behaviour is mostly innate.

Yes, i agree, but not nessecarily the target species.

[MichaelF]

Courtship behaviour is mostly innate.
If I may emphasize the "mostly" - could it not be that between closely related species, there are subtle differences in courtship which are learned by nestlings watching their parents? Human-reared birds wouldn't learn those but would only have more generalised innate behaviour common to all species in their genus. That would actually increase the risks of hybridisation, as they would not be totally courtship-naive.

[mafting]

I think waterfowl are a slightly different case though, in that matings can be more like group assaults rather than one-on-one courtships. They also lay large clutches, so that the chances of mixed paternity are higher than for, say, a Greenfinch, due to miltuple matings over a longer period enabling successful fertilisation. You are also more likely to get lone birds of species x as proportionately more waterfowl than other groups have small feral populations where the number of mates will be restricted. So it is statistically easier for a Chaffinch to find another Chaffinch than it is for e.g. a British Red-crested Pochard to find another RCP.

Alcedo atthis - I suspect that release of hybrid finches is also common. While there is a motive for breeding them, many do not reach the show standard required. As they are usually (invariably?) infertile, they are of little use and many probably get disposed of through release.

There are less exacting standards required for falcons, as they are not used in competitive shows as finches are, so it doesn't matter too much what they look like.

[Alcedo atthis]

I think waterfowl are a slightly different case though, in that matings can be more like group assaults rather than one-on-one courtships. ...

Alcedo atthis - I suspect that release of hybrid finches is also common. While there is a motive for breeding them, many do not reach the show standard required. As they are usually (invariably?) infertile, they are of little use and many probably get disposed of through release.



but the group assaults are also not the usual thing in ducks... (and forced copulations occur also in other birds , that has been documented for House martin x barn swallow)

I suppose that hybrid Finches are more easily overlooked, and might perhaps also be more easily fall prey to predators like cats or sparrowhawks.
There maybe less predators around that take a ducksized bird?

[Alcedo atthis]

If I may emphasize the "mostly" - could it not be that between closely related species, there are subtle differences in courtship which are learned by nestlings watching their parents? Human-reared birds wouldn't learn those but would only have more generalised innate behaviour common to all species in their genus. That would actually increase the risks of hybridisation, as they would not be totally courtship-naive.


As far as I know the whole procedure of courtship behaviour is genetically fixed in ducks, very much in detail. It is different from, for example chaffinches, who have a rough "genetic concept" of their song, but have to hear the male parents song to get it correct (I think the example was chaffinch, but I am not 100% sure-it was some finch species thats what i remember).

(I am not taking into account the assaults on any female duck, conspecific or not, that can happen in some ducks, especially Mallard and RCp, because these assaults do not go together with any courtship behaviour).

Concerning this, I seem to remeber that the picture of the female is not genetically fixed, meaning that a male reared by a female of another species will direct its courtship to females of that species (and maybe the species it is reared with has also some influence-which could explain that hybrids are commoner in captivity where birds of different species are often artificially reared together?)